Donne/Herbert 10/23

John Donne wrote in dedication to God later in his life, but most of the poems we have read relate to romantic or erotic love. Herbert, however, writes exclusively of his devotion to God. Donne often describes his romantic love as a “religious experience,” as his introduction tells us, so compare Donne’s religious romanticism with Herbert’s literal religious experiences. Do they ever sound similar? Can any parallels be made?

16 thoughts on “Donne/Herbert 10/23

  1. It is surprising to see how different Donne and Herbert’s poems are when we consider that Herbert was a disciple of Donne. Herbert focuses solely on religious love rather than erotic or personal love. Donne, on the other hand, is concerned with both types of love and often describes religious love erotically and vice versa. Herbert takes a more simplistic approach to his religious poetry. It seems to me that Herbert’s poetry is also more surface level than Donne’s. Herbert’s poems seem to mostly talk about wanting to go to heaven rather than any earthly conflicts. Donne’s religious poems seem to discuss more specific aspects of religion, such as death.

    • I agree with the above comment in that Donne and Herbert’s poems do have much different ideas of love. Donne chooses to describe different concepts of love, while Herbert focuses on the religious idea of love. The two poets have parallels in their writings on religious love, however Donne focuses on the metaphysical while Herbert focuses on a transition to heaven.

    • I agree with what you said about Herbert’s writing being more “surface level” than Donne’s yet I don’t think wanting to go to heaven is not an earthly conflict. I’d argue that Herbert expressing his desire to go to heaven is borne of the most earthly conflict: trying to escape death. Which in turn, shows Herbert is influenced by death, as is Donne in his writing, although it may not be directly stated in his writing.

  2. Often I think it is very clear that these two writers come from similar stock and have similar motives in their writing. They share a sense of subtlety and often have a delicate tone that plays with the idea of their loves as physical literal beings. In The Holy Sonnet 14, Donne is addressing a YOU in the poem and goes back and forth between a sense of faith and near erotic connection to a three personded God. Here I think is a great example of what Teajay said about him describing love as a religious experience. In Love (3) by Herbert it seems to me that he is pushing the boundary between a love of one’s lord and a very intimate romantic love. Both let language play with these lines and I think that is the most clear cut similarity between them as poets.

  3. I think one of the differences between Donne’s poetry and Herbert’s poetry is where their inspiration comes from and to what purpose they are writing. Donne seems to be inspired by both his spirituality and romantic love. Herbert, on the other hand, is mainly inspired by his love for God and his desire to be near to Him. This is evident in “Denial” when he writes “when my devotions could not pierce Thy silent ears; then was my heart broken, as was my verse.” His poetry is affected by his relationship with God. Also, in “Jordan,” he writes that “when first my lines of heav’nly joys made mention…I sought out quaint words, and trim invention.” This shows how the spiritual topics that Herbert writes about majorly influenced his work and success. Donne’s poetry, on the other hand, is inspired by both love for God and romantic love. These influences come together and his poetry reflects the same passion in both. The poets are similar in that they both do write about spirituality, however the topics through which they use their spiritual influences vary.

  4. Both Donne and Herbert demonstrate religious love in their poetry, but in some of Donne’s poetry in particular, there is an erotic and sexual undertone. The main reason was his love for Ann and he declared his love for her through a lot of his poetry. On the other hand, Herbert declares his love for Jesus Christ using excerpts from the bible as inspiration and that death in his mind is a good thing if one is to receive salvation. Both Herbert and Donne express pain within their works. Herbert expresses pain in some of his poetry after his love, Ann dies. Donne expresses his pain of being a human being on Earth that experiences pain in different ways from loss, sorrow, and physical pain and that Jesus Christ actually gained all of the pain for all mankind for humans to walk among the Earth despite all of the sins that were committed before Jesus’s Crucifixion.

  5. These two poets, although they ultimately are writing about different things, both incorporate the elements of human emotion and nature into their pieces. Donne taps into emotion on a more erotic level, talking about romantic love instead of religious love like Herbert. These are two fundamentally different topics, but the two poets seem to be on the same wavelength with their style and ways of framing their thoughts. As stated in an above comment, Herbert is a disciple of Donne which reveals why these two men are so often compared. Nature is a more prevalent theme in Donne’s poems, but it is present in Herbert’s as well. Love and religion both have strong ties to the natural world. This can clearly be seen in the Affliction by Herbert and The Sun Rising by Donne.

  6. I agree with the thoughts above about how the two authors represent religious experience above but I also feel that they are, in their own way, building on a tradition we have seen before. It makes sense that Donne would equate words of sensual love with religious fever. Going back to Margery Kemp and even Dream of the Rood the relationship with Christ is intensely personal, it makes sense that Donne would talk of it in terms of the most personal relationship anyone can enter.

  7. I wanted to point out the different aspects of faith for these two poets. John Donne, according to his introduction was born into Catholicism during the time of its persecution in England. His faith was constantly under suspicion even after converting to the Church of England. His devotional writings may have varying aspects of dedication because of the turmoil of his religious life. George Herbert on the other hand was an Anglican his entire life and could have contributed to his purely religious devotionals.

  8. so compare Donne’s religious romanticism with Herbert’s literal religious experiences. Do they ever sound similar? Can any parallels be made?

    Donne’s religious romanticism within his poetry has, at times, an element of questioning/confusion due to his loyalty to religion from youth to adulthood. In ‘The Relic’ he says, ” First, we loved well and faithfully, yet knew not what we loved, nor why.” I think this has a major impression on how he views religion as a passionate love affair and also how he views death. Death is not necessarily something deary, but something to look forward too when death will be overcome, such as he describes in Holy Sonnet #10. The parallel between the two authors is their ability to describe their devotion through verse, albeit different methods; most notable difference is Herbert’s modesty in regards to scholar references and self-dramatization as noted in the summary. Also noted in the author’s blurb is the fact that both authors use the rhymes of colloquial speech very effectively, Herbert follows Donne’s model in this area.

    • Herbert focuses solely on religious love throughout his poems, and the relationship with god, rather than the relationship with the opposite sex. Donne, however, writes in his poems using religious themes and also themes of love between a mortal man and woman. I’m not surprised that Donne defends his relationships he is describing in his poems as a “religious experience”. Many people’s devotion and love god is very fervent, passionate, loving, and sort of erotic (such as displaying many of the figures in religion as naked, or telling stories that include sex, love and relationships and how that will affect them), such as with a female partner. Each also get many of the same resulting feelings from religion and relationships. Both feel as if they are cared for, that they have someone to care for in return, and also are dedicated to something beautiful and powerful.

  9. In the poem Affliction by Herbert, and in Donne’s Elegy 19, I can find several specific parallels. Both talk about pleasures. For Herbert, it is the pleasure of serving his Lord “What pleasures could I want, whose King I served? (Herbert, 30) and for Donne it is the pleasures of the flesh that hold him captive. Each poet also uses the color white to express virtue and innocence. Herbert uses the metaphor of “milk and sweetness” (19), and Donne speaks of innocence being lost among the white linen bed sheets. Generally speaking, both poets, although writing on very different subjects of love, each write with a certain comparable vigor.

  10. I also agree that it is funny that Herbert’s work sprouted from Donne’s earlier works because they did not write about the same themes or express those themes similarly. I am glad that Herbert gave himself some individuality instead of following in Donne’s footsteps, relating love and sex to religion. That definitely makes them stand apart from one another. They do parallel because both are dedicated to their faith and express that devoutly in their sonnets/poetic works, regardless of how they might express them.

  11. I chose to look at specific poems from both Donne and Herbert to get a better feel for similarities, in hopes of relating that back to all of their work. My personal favorite of The Sun Rising by Donne was because of the way that in a sense, he personified the sun, called it a “busy old fool”, and stating things such as “must to thy motions lover’ seasons run?” I could definitely see how Donne would relate this to a religious experience. He turns his love into the center of the universe, just as he does later on in his writing career with God. Related to Herbert, we also get such a strong feeling of his love for God as seen through his intense stanza structures, especially as seen in Love(3), I saw a lot of parallels with this and The Sun Rising in that there was almost a feeling of longing, and pain for how much love they each have. Though each “worship” a different sort of being, in both writing we can feel their passion, whether it be in a romantic sense or religious experience.

  12. The poems of Donne and Herbert remind me of those from Margery Kempe and Julian of Norwich in which they both interpret their relationship with God differently. Donne is similar to Kempe in that he expresses a suffering with Christ and a focus on sinning , while both Herbert and and Julian feel man’s importance and a more loving relationship from God. This is shown in lines 7 on in Herbert’s “Man.”

  13. I feel that at times the two poets sounded very similar. They both express the physical and spiritual emotions that their respective love has, whether it is one that is spiritual or erotic. Having been such an influence on other poets it only makes sense that any poems coming after Donne would in some way would sound similar.

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